Podcast episode Minnie
You are listening to the Life Reconstructed podcast with me, Teresa Amaral Beshwate, grief expert, best-selling author, and widow. I'm so glad you're here because in this and every episode, I shine a light on the widowed way forward.
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In this special guest episode, I had the pleasure of sitting down with my client Minnie O’Grady to talk about her joy, Jake, the strong foundation they first built as friends, her life before and after Jake’s death.
Along with way, we talk about:
A form of disenfranchised grief - losing your person when you’re not legally married.
How overachievers tend to approach grief.
The importance of intergenerational connections when you’re grieving.
Re-partnering while grieving and the coexistence of grief and love.
Plus Minnie throws in her best real estate tips and shares her love of the farm to table movement, cooking farm fresh produce, and her bold vision for her future.
No matter your journey, this episode has something for everyone and it will leave you feeling inspired. Let’s begin.
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Minnie, it is such an honor to have you on the podcast. I have been looking forward to this for such a long time, and you probably know this, but I'm such a fan of yours and welcome. Aw, well thank you. I'm so glad to be doing this. Tell us your story. So, um, my love was Jake. Jake was just joy and laughter.
He was a comedian, somewhat of a, I'd say halfway between amateur and professional. Nice. I hope that he would agree with me. Um, and his day job, he was a school teacher, um, and he taught PE and it was just so. Perfect for him that he, he just got to play, you know, and that was what he was, was just play and laughter and just joy.
Um, so we met working at summer camp together when I was 19. Um, I had just lost a parent and I wasn't doing very good and I, when I lost her, I didn't, my family sort of fell apart and I didn't really have a lot left in my life. And, um, I had finished my first year of college and it was the summer and I didn't have anywhere to go.
So I had this offer to go work at this summer camp, and I thought, okay. It was uncharacteristic of me at the time, but I thought, whatever I, you know, I don't have anything going for me. I'm just gonna go out into the woods and it's gonna be a summer of prayer and reflection and I'm gonna be just so pure like a nun.
I'm not gonna do anything exciting. That was my idea. Um, and it was, um, it was Boy Scout camp and I didn't know anything about it at the time and I thought, oh my goodness, this sounds just, this is gonna be just the most annoying people. Right. Um, I also knew that the Boy Scouts were heavily related with the Mormon church, so I figured everyone else was gonna be pretty religious and I thought, I'll sit right in just doing my thing out in the woods.
And, um, I really was so surprised when I got there. It was just. This place where everybody was just free spirits and just themselves, and Jake ran the camp. He was the program director. So I met him on the very first day and was just instantly attached to him. He was so magnetic, and he'd been running the camp for quite a while at that point.
So he just had it down and he was just phenomenal at it and just injected that whole first day with so much fun. I think everybody felt like we were all good friends just by the end of the first day, you know? And I always tell people, losing Jake was such a major, major, major loss for our community because he was such a big person.
And I mean that very literally. He was what I would call an iconic person in our community. And so he was losing him. I mean, he was so known, so well known by people so adored and just, I guess, for lack of a better word, just popular, you know? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, so it was kind of like the unthinkable. Um, but I remember being struck, this is so, you know, I met him sort of casually that first day, but I remember kind of when we actually met on a one-to-one level, and I.
Was crying because I wanted to go visit the spot where my parents' ashes had been spread and I didn't have enough gas to go, but we were out in the mountains and there was nowhere that I could go get enough gas to go. So I was just sitting inside crying. Mm-hmm. And Jake came through and he saw me and asked what was wrong.
And I had two of my other friends sitting there with me and they explained and just, he just popped right up, up and just absolutely no hesitation. He was like, oh, that's all it is. Well I'll take you. And I was floored because, you know, he runs the camp. He's this popular person that's, you know, how does he have nothing to do on a Saturday morning, but help this random crying girl?
And so we went and. To my surprise, during that trip I learned Jake had this rich inner world that very, very few people ever got to see, because even though he was so, he had this onstage personality and was so sort of popular, people didn't invite him to things. He kind of got left behind a lot, and he was a really lonely person in a lot of ways.
Hmm. And he had an extremely tough childhood and had learned a lot of kind of defense mechanisms of sort of keeping people at arms length. And so he sort of had this onstage personality, and then there was just Jake. Mm-hmm. And his way of staying safe was there, wasn't he? He wasn't just Jake really to anybody, you know.
So I got that glimpse and I was just smi, you know, and I just had kind of committed myself. I'm like, I am going to be this person's best friend and just prove that he doesn't have to be lonely and I want to invite him to things. I want him to be there. And that kind of became, that was the beginning of our beautiful eight year friendship and, um.
I, that summer I had these rules that I was not going to get involved with anybody or get off track. 'cause like I said, you know, I was supposed to be this peaceful nun this whole time. I wasn't gonna have any fun. And so I, me and my best friend, actually, we made this list and I dug it up because I thought you would think it's funny.
I, I said this to Jake, um, that I'm not, uh, I'm trying to stay, you know, locked down. I'm not interested in anything. And some of the things on our list were, if you feel like some one-on-one time, rethink that thought. There should never be more than two consecutive minutes of silence. Silence leads to relationships.
Nothing that involves stars, moonlight, or road talks. And you can only ride shotgun if they ride Trump. Mm. And so, you know, he knew that I was just not available. And incidentally, I, I met my best friend at the same time at that year. And, um, as we became closer, I, you know, learned that she had really kind of been in love with him for a few years and nothing had ever happened between the two of 'em.
And so by the end of the summer, they kind of got together and I made peace with it, even though I, I knew I was attracted to him, but I thought, you know what? I came out here to pray and, and find God really? And I did. And so I thought mission accomplished. I'm happy as can be, and I'm so happy for my best friend and all these people I've met.
And so that was that. And they dated for a while and I ended up really entangled with, um, who I would say was probably my first really big love. And that lasted for a while. But Jake and I stayed really close through all that time. And like I said, I had really committed to I'm going to be this person's best friend.
And so I was just incessant about not letting him keep a wall up when we were talking and spending time together. And I just really beat down that door, you know? Mm-hmm. And so what resulted is we built this relationship that just had such deep trust and he was able to be just Jake with me and not this onstage version of himself.
And we had. Such profound respect for each other. I think a lot of our childhood issues were very similar and left really similar scars on each of us. And so I think that what characterized the early part of our friendship, the only way I could really describe it is like we were protecting each other.
And I always told other people, especially my best friend who was dating him, I was like, there's nothing going on between me and Jake. We just have this weirdly intimate friendship. Mm-hmm. And it was like I said, just this respect that you are sort of off limits because I would never hurt you and there's so much risk, you know.
And so we sort of kept it that way for a while and he and my best friend finally separated. And, um, I separated with the person that I had been with and we went back to summer camp and worked a year together in the same area. So he had been running the camp, and that year he decided to take a step back.
Um, and he needed some time to reflect. And so he worked in the kitchen with me and we got even closer. And it was such a wonderful summer and kind of after that year, you know, we, we just really deepened our friendship and then my best friend and him decided to try it one more time and get back together.
And it was so painful for them both just watching that. Play out. They both wanted so badly to be the person that the other one needed, and they wanted it to fit so bad. They were just contorting themselves. And it was painful for me because I ended up in a position where I was sort of counseling them both, and they would have fights and, you know, misunderstandings.
And one would call me and we'd talk for an hour and then, you know, 15 minutes go by and here's the call from the other one. And I made a personal rule. I was like, I'm never, I, I'm never, uh, crossing the wires here. You know, I, anything one of 'em said to me, the other one was never gonna hear. But, um, you know, it became awkward because.
It felt like I was the one in a relationship with each of them, but they couldn't really talk to each other about a lot of the things that they were expressing to me. And I think after a while they kind of acknowledged, they had already known for a long time that it was never going to work. And um, they split up and Jake became very, very depressed after that.
And I think just years of all this hardship really caught up to him. And he was so lonely and we would call and talk almost every day because he just wasn't well. And one day he admitted to me that he didn't wanna live anymore. And I really think that it was because I wasn't in a relationship with him.
I didn't expect anything from him. I didn't really, I mean, I needed things from him, but it wasn't an expectation that I needed things from him, you know? And I think that it was being in that position that allowed me to be the person that could talk him down. Mm-hmm. Because I could stay calm mm-hmm. And helpful, you know, and he ended up okay.
And then I had left to go work this job out in the woods again. And this was a permanent situation. And I was living in a place where we didn't have cell service or really an internet or anything, so I was pretty much, she couldn't contact me for a while. Um, but we stayed in touch as best we could and wrote some letters and things like that.
And, um. When I left, I ended up moving out here to Kansas City with my partner at the time, who I met there, um, at that job. And, um, I remember visiting home a couple of times and seeing him and just being so overjoyed to see him and realizing how overjoyed he was to see me too, and just kind of thinking like, huh, that's funny.
That's just interesting. And, um, you know, it didn't work out with the partner that I was with at the time. And I, we separated and I ended up kind of backsliding with a different ex for a while and just not having my life together. And I finally got out of that and I'd gone to see him. I visited home and we spent some time together and it was just really special.
And then that Christmas, he sent me the most lovely note and just saying how thankful he was for me and how much he cared about me. And that really started it off. And I'm telling you all of this because I feel like you can't really understand who Jake was to me until you understand who he wasn't to me for so long.
Mm-hmm. And at that moment, it kind of felt like the universe saying like, it's okay now, you know, it, it is time now and it's safe now. And um, even then. I was so terrified to tell my best friend and she was engaged, but I was so scared. And I lived in Kansas City and he still lived in Portland. Um, and so, you know, we were long distance really.
And then her wedding was that May, and we went together and I still hadn't told her. And um, it was like torture, you know? And I just couldn't let anything happen. And so we kept each other at arms length still even then. And I just remember getting back on the plane and just sobbing. And I had this feeling.
I used to get all of these feelings and premonitions, and after he passed, I think they're kind of gone, but. On the plane, I had this feeling that was just like, what have I done? Oh God, what have I done? I wasted such precious time and it was just this weird intuition, like I wasn't gonna have another chance or that there wouldn't be enough time.
And I remember having a conversation with myself in my head and going, just calm down. Everything is fine. Call him when the plane lands. Like it's fine. Um, and so we finally told my friend and she didn't care at all. And so we bought him a ticket and he flew out to Kansas City and we were spending the summer together and trying to figure out how we were going to relocate and, and move forward with our life together.
And it was so perfect. I remember the first day we spent together, uh, we'd gotten a hotel from the airport on our way back and, uh, we had a bath. And I remember saying to him, don't you think it's so funny that one day in your life we'll be the best day of your life, but you won't know it when it's happening?
And he said, maybe that day is today. And he died less than a month later. And so what we had was just this blip, you know, but we had it. And I know that when he died, he felt like he had everything that he wanted. And I think. He died really, really happy. You know, it was that August, well really it was, uh, it happened in July.
Um, he was flying home for a short, um, family reunion and he was gonna come back after a few days. And, um, he'd gone on a bike ride and he had a brain aneurysm and went into the hospital and he hung on for a few weeks. I flew out there immediately and I really, really, really believed he was gonna be okay.
And that was really the start of me realizing these premonitions and feelings can't be trusted anymore because I just knew it in my gut that we were gonna be laughing about this someday, about how terrified I was and. It just seemed impossible that he could die. And he just got worse and worse. And it just got more and more apparent, this is really happening.
And then it did. Um, and that's our story. That's part of your story. It's part of our story. There's more. Yeah. Yeah. The definition of a widowed person is that you've lost the person you plan to spend the rest of your life with. Yeah. And I don't know if you love or hate or something in between that word widow Minnie, but, but I, I feel, go ahead.
I feel good about the term widow. When I first sort of joined the widow community, I was really afraid of being rejected. Because we weren't married yet. And, but I thought, if these aren't my people, if this isn't where I belong, then where do I belong? I was 27 when he died. There weren't any peers for me.
No one could understand. And I found, um, my widow group here in Kansas City in person first, and they accepted me with open arms. And I mean, it changed everything. And so soaring spirit's definition of a widow that you just said is such a delight to me to just feel so included in that because I don't know what else you could possibly call me.
Mm-hmm. Neither do I. It it's important for other people to know. Yeah. Because you know, there's many societal myths about grief in general about losing a spouse. And I think that yet another myth that probably we all just believe is that unless you were married, you're not widowed. Mm-hmm. Right. And it's just not true.
So yes, the widowed community is very inclusive and very accepting of anyone who lost the person they planned to spend the rest of their life with. And yes. How wonderful that you became aware of that mini and tried it. You had the courage Yes. To try that and risk potentially being rejected. Yeah. And then what you found was a community with open arms.
Yeah. And I think you and I went to Camp Widow together near Seattle, and I think you probably saw other 20 somethings there. I did, yeah. It doesn't discriminate. That was powerful. I know. Yeah. Doesn't discriminate. Yeah. So I think that love lives. Yeah. That love doesn't die. Yeah. And I believe that relationships continue.
And that's why I said that's part of your story. Yes. Well, and that's why I still wear my ring. I'm still his and he's still mine. Yeah. You know,
and you know, I'm Repartnered now, and even still he's, he's still my person. He's still my fiance. You know, he's so funny. He said, uh. While we were trying to figure out how to make, um, the relocating work, it was complicated and we were getting frustrated and he said, you know what, man? It's gonna be fine because if we can't figure this out, um, or if something happens to me, then I'll just haunt you and then if I'm haunting you, we'll be together all the time and then this won't even be a problem.
And of course, you know, I said, whatcha talking about nothing's gonna happen to you? You know, he was 32 years old. Healthy as can be. There's just absolutely no indication that something like this would happen. But in a way that small comment has kind of prepared me for this in, in some small aspect of just knowing he's haunting me.
He's still here, so I have You're the happiest, haunted woman there ever was. Yes, exactly. Yes. I have my living partner and I have my ghost partner. Yeah. Yes. It's such a great example. This life that you're living, you're still Jake's person and Yeah. You're repartnered and those coexist. It's not, or it's and Yes.
Which means you didn't leave Jake in the past. You didn't move on from Jake. Yes. You didn't get over it. Those are more societal myths. I'm, I'm, if you could see me, I'm using air quotes mini can see me, but those are not required. Mm-hmm. It's all about the, and. Yes. And you know this Theresa, that I was so sure that I would never, ever, ever love again, and there was just no possibility for it.
And in a way, the way I coped with my grief led me to my now person and I right after he passed. Uh, I look back on this timeline and I'm honestly shocked. 'cause as you know, as a widow, that first year is just a random blur. Nothing makes sense. And, um, you know, he passed away in August. We had his funeral in September, and by October, by the end of October, I had keys to a new house.
I had been renting and I just couldn't, you know, like a lot of widows, I couldn't stay there with the memories. I, I needed to go somewhere else. And so I bought this house and I bought it because I'd been scrolling and looking through the pictures of different listings and I saw this house and I go, oh, that house is haunted.
That's a haunted house. Said no one ever, except for many, except for me. And I said, that's the one. He'll know where to find me. He'll see it, that it's haunted and he'll know. And he would love this. And if we were buying a house together right now, we would buy this one. And, um. I went to look at it and honestly, what a terrible decision.
Part of the, the back room where the dining room is now, uh, the floor was actually fully caved in and I bought it anyway. First time home buyer. Not a lot of competition for this house, I'm guessing. Yeah, not exactly. No. Um, and how I made it through that first year, the, I cared about two things and only two things, and it was my dog and making that house more haunted.
And I remodeled the thing by myself. I had some help here and there, but it was me and my own two hands. Wow. And I built a new kitchen and a new bathroom and a new deck and. I rebuilt that stupid sunken floor. Wow. I did it all in that first year. Wow. I was jokingly going to say follow mini for more real estate tips, but now I'm like going to seriously say really follow mini for more real estate tips.
Yeah. You wouldn't have wanted to in the beginning, but I sure learned a lot.
And so I, um, I planned to have this house warming party at the anniversary of, um, when I bought the house. So one year later, and, you know, which is again, I saying this shocking timeline. It was only a year and what, two months after he passed. So it was really right around my first year mark as a widow. I thought, I am never gonna get a wedding.
And so everyone is coming to this and I told everyone, this is a very big deal to me. I am unveiling this house that I've worked on so hard all this year, and it's my place and it's my place where Jake knows where to find me and he's here with me. And so all these people flew out and we had this house warming and leading up to it probably maybe three weeks ahead of that.
I. My bathroom was still totally gutted down to the studs and it wasn't ready at all. And I had gotten this amazing deal, Theresa, on a hot tub. Not a hot tub, just a bathtub, sorry. Uh, but it was only $25 and it was a deep soaking tub, but it was also solid cast iron and weighed about a thousand pounds. Um, and it was sitting in my driveway.
I bought the thing and the men that sold it to me loaded it up for me. But I got it home. And then I kind of realized, oh yeah, who's gonna put it inside the house? And I had made a friend through my remodeling adventures and he said, I'm gonna help you out. I'm gonna invite some friends over. We're gonna get this done and I'll see if my brother can help.
And so, uh, no one else showed up, but the brother and I was in the bathroom at the time. Working in the bathroom. And, um, my friend had led him into the living room and I heard him in there petting my dog and having a great time. So that was already a great first sign. And I walked out there and he looked up at me and the very, very first thing that struck me was he was really attractive.
And he looked like Bo Burnham. And Bo Burnham was one of Jake's favorite comedians. And he, I, his, um, last soundtrack had kind of been the soundtrack of my summer with Jake and then of his death. I mean, those songs were really, really important to me. And so here's Bo Burnham standing in my living room and I thought, this is a sign.
Um, that's how I met my now partner and I wasn't sure that I wanted that at the time to be dating, but I just decided to take. One day at a time and I was open to it and um, yeah, I learned, like you said, I mean it's a both and situation and there was a lot more room in my heart for love than I expected.
There is a bathtub theme happening in this story. I just wanna point that out to you. Wow. From bathtub to bathtub uhhuh. It doesn't end like, I think it's evidence that there is no finish line. Yeah. Here you are grieving Jake and also enjoying a differently good, differently beautiful life with a new partner and they coexist.
Yes. Somehow. And you can honor both. Yeah. Yeah.
So good. Lemme just check my questions, Minnie.
I'm gonna ask you the second question. What has surprised you during your grief? Anything really. Sometimes friends go missing in action. We get judgment from people that we don't expect. Share whatever you feel comfortable sharing. Yeah, that resonates a lot. Um, I had a really, really rough time socially as he was dying and after he passed, um, a lot of it was very shocking and I sort of lost most of my social circle through that.
Um, one of our biggest challenges, well, sort of a, a two part challenge. One. Like I mentioned, Jake kept his personal life very personal, and so not a lot of people really knew what was going on with him at home, you know? And also because we were so afraid of hurting my best friend and trying to be so respectful of her, we didn't really announce that we were together or any of it.
And so not a lot of people knew, and many of them found out while he was in the hospital. And so something that was a really horrific struggle for me was that Jake was never able to be there to verbally tell other people, I love this woman and she's my person. And so I felt a lot of just fear and almost like imposter syndrome, you know?
And it's so weird. I know a lot of people can relate to this, that it's just crazy how our story just instantly becomes flattened into my story and I'm the only one carrying it now. Mm-hmm. And um, a lot of people we're really not open to hearing
who I was to him or,
you know.
It was difficult for people to accept what the situation was. And um, yeah, I lost a lot of friends, people that I thought would be in my life forever and ever and ever. Um, and I think that that was kind of the thing that made my grief journey so painful was because I had intense guilt and confusion and shame and so many of these dark, deep internal thoughts and emotions.
And, um,
I think what was such a powerful turning point for me when I entered into your program. Was realizing that
all of that sense that people think I'm wrong or we weren't meant to be together or something that, that, that was really coming from inside of me because it's what I was afraid of. Mm-hmm. And I realized that that fear was blocking our love. And when I was feeling that fear, I could not feel his love for me.
And when I was finally able to let that go, it just rushed in. Mm. And was so affirming, you know, like, my God, I was his treasure. Mm-hmm. How could I let myself think that it was anything different? Mm-hmm. So you felt sort of invalidated Yeah. As his person? Yeah. And then you were thinking that other people were seeing you as not validly his person.
Yeah. Am I describing it correctly? Yeah. And I think the root of a lot of it was while we were still in the hospital, you know, this was during COVID, um, and there were only, what was it, four of us that were allowed to go in and see him and his whole family had come out and we were all basically camped out in the hospital parking lot 'cause that's how they were doing it then.
And um, they all were relying on us to come down and relay information and um, and you know, I remember at 1.1 of the family members said, well, who even is she? Why she here? And that was really the seed for a lot of it. And then everything after that, just these awkward side looks and comments and things that just, just snowballed into this horrible fear.
Yeah. Understandably so. So often the things that we, the people are saying or insinuating that hurts us, or the things that we fear they might be thinking or saying are already the things that we're thinking in our own mind. Yeah. This is such a good way to find it, is to ask ourselves, does some part of me agree with that?
Yeah. And maybe there's just like 2% of you that agrees with it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And then we can just hold that up into the light and, and question it and examine it for truth and right usefulness and kindness. But, so it is in some ways a gift. When we fear what other people will think or say, or when they actually think or say it.
And, and, and it hurts. It stings. Yes. And I did that after you taught me how I dug into what is that little part of me that fears this is true and why, and I realized that, that the little kernel of belief that I'd been holding onto was that the only relationships that matter or amount to anything are marriages.
And we weren't married, so it didn't mean anything. And I, I unmasked that and realized it, and then I thought, does that even align with who I am and how I mean to be and move through the world? No. Would I say that to someone else? Absolutely not. No. No. Such a good finding, such a good insight. Yeah. And as, as our listeners are already well aware of Minnie, you are deep and thoughtful and articulate, and so good at looking at yourself objectively.
It's a's a great skill and you have such strong mental flexibility. Like your brain might be offering, you know, thought A, and you are very willing to consider the rest of the alphabet. Yeah. And that is a skill that will serve you, of course, in grief, but just in life. Yeah. I laughed the first time that we talked that you said a lot of your clientele tend to be kind of overachievers and I mean, that describes me to a t and um, I, you said, um, there's no way to get extra credit doing this.
I was reflecting on that thinking, you know, grief is so, grief and, and widowhood are both so opposed to perfection. You cannot be perfect and do this. And that's been such a challenge for me. And um, I think that's part of why. You know, you, you lay everything out for people so well in your program, in these digestible steps.
And they're so clear and so easy. And I am so drawn to that because it's like, oh, it's just a problem and I can solve problems. Hmm. I can research problems. I know how to do this. I was thinking when I first, uh, like in, in the first couple sessions of your class, uh, you know, I mentioned earlier how, um, important some of Bo Burnham songs were to me, and he is got this one that he's saying, I just wanna feel good.
Tell me how to feel good. Write it in an email. And I walked away from one of our first classes and I said, oh my goodness, I can email. I could put it in an email. So good. Yeah. Well, a big part of it is are we throwing salt in the wound? Salt takes so many different forms. Let's be sure we can identify salt, recognize it when we see it, and then we can heal the wound.
Yeah. But only then only when we stop throwing salt in it. So can we stop putting salt in the wound? That's maybe the first thing. And then the second thing is, okay, now that we're just tending to the wound, here's how to tend to the wound in a very proactive and efficient way. Yeah. I think that probably describes the program pretty well.
Yes, I would say. And would you say for you, there was both salt, obviously there was a a big wound. Would you say that there were salt for you too? A heavy dose of salt? Heavy dose? Yeah. Yeah. See that's the thing. Overachievers. A lot of salt. A lot of salt. Yes. A lot of blame on yourself and regret and. I'm so thankful that you taught us, you know, directly how to deal with regret because there's so much of that for me.
Yeah. And I have let go of a lot of it, and I think I remember the most striking thing in our very first conversation before I joined your program. You told me that there is joy possible for me in the future, and I absolutely did not believe you. Yeah. And I, I could not see it, but at the same time I started sobbing because deep in my gut and here was one of those little feelings that I think was right to follow.
I thought, I know I need this. I don't wanna do it. I really didn't wanna take your program. Nobody does. I didn't wanna, but it was just this, okay, here's this thing that's been laid at my feet that I must do. Mm. And 'cause the thing you were doing on your own DIY was actually the harder thing. Would you agree?
Yes, I would. I would. And I noticed that I was only getting worse. Mm. I was isolating and getting more and more cautious of how I was interacting with people and really coming undone. You know? I remember meeting you and thinking, oh, she has to work with me. She has to work with me. I really, really wanna work with her.
She would be amazing. You were right. And look at you. Look at you now. Yeah. So, so my program was helpful to you. What else has helped you? I, I know you're a nature lover. Yeah. And I wonder if that's been a part of your healing. I wish it were more. Um, it's part of why my goal is to move back to Oregon and had been, you know, even since before Jake and I were trying to plan to go home, Kansas City is one of those places that you just sort of just comfortably fall asleep and then forget to leave.
Um, yeah. Nature is so important for me. It goes back to that first summer at summer camp that that's where I go to pray and be close to God. Mm-hmm. And reflect and feel myself. And it's hard for me to do that without that. But, um, there's been other things that have been so, so helpful. I mentioned my in-person group, um, and that's the, they we're called the Kansas City Widows Club now, um, formerly the Kansas City Chapter of Modern Widows Club.
Um, okay. But, um, the, the club, no one wants to join. Yes. That's what they always say. The club, no one wants to join. It's wonderful nonetheless. And that group, many, I'm sure that those folks are quite a bit older than you. Several of them are, yes. And when I joined that, um, it was because a friend of mine, nine, but it was sort of a friend of a friend, of a friend situation.
Somebody knew this person that she was, I think a year or two older than me, but was also 27 when her husband passed and she was part of the group. And that person reached out and gave me the information and I wouldn't probably have reached out if I didn't know that. And she was the only person there that was at least under the age of 35.
Um, and there were a few people that were still definitely shockingly young to be widows. Um. But you know, many of them were at least retirement age. Mm-hmm. It was surprising to me, and I, I think you can comment on this and especially seeing it at Camp Widow, that widows aren't a specific age. You know, it's everybody.
And I was sort of shocked it wasn't just this room full of little old ladies that, you know, stereotype widowhood that you would think. Yeah. Um, it was, it was all different types, types of women. And that group is a, it's women only. Um, but even at Camp Widow, when I had the chance to attend with you, I was so taken aback when I first walked in that room and there was.
Over a thousand widows in one place. And I felt so normal for the first time, just so incredibly average and normal. And, um, men and women and people of all ages and races and backgrounds and everything. And, um, I remember the organizer said, everyone is widows. It widows is for everyone. And yeah, I was just, I mean, of course, but I didn't think about it that way before.
But yeah, that, um, that first day when I walked into that group, it was the first thing that I had done. I hadn't seen a therapist yet. I hadn't gone online. I, I really was just drinking. That was what I was doing. And I didn't drink before that. I had never had a drink until that happened, but. Um, having her there and being that one other person who could somewhat understand made a huge, huge difference for me.
Now, would you recommend these intergenerational groups have you benefited from the women who are Yeah. Say in their eighties Yes. And beyond. Okay. Absolutely, yes. Um, I think it's modern widow's sort of tagline is the all ages, all stages thing. Um, and their purpose is more towards mentorship rather than support group.
And of course it ends up being both. Um, but, and you know, I went three months in, which I learned later is pretty early to start going to group. Um, but, um, I. Sorry, I lost my train of thought. The overachievers get there quicker though. Yes. I don't know. I'm just kidding. Probably. Well, you know, I didn't really have very many people in my life at that point.
A lot of family anyway. I had plenty of friends and stuff, but you know, I, I moved out here to Kansas City with that partner and I wasn't with them anymore. And then I had my brother and he was younger than me and couldn't really understand a lot, and I needed community, you know, and so three months to me it was kind of like, it was times, you know?
Yeah. Yeah. I ask you that question because the woman who helped me the most in the first year, I was 39. She was 95. Yes. And of all the humans on this planet, I needed, I needed to go to her about once a month or twice a month and be with her. Yes. And I know, I know lots of widowed people who look at a demographic a certain age and say, I don't fit.
And I would just suggest, and I think it's your experience too, we have more in common Yes. Than not. Yes, absolutely. And the hats, a lot of the older widows in that group have been the most impactful to me because again, they made me one feel normal. And two, you know, when you lose your person, the future just dissolves.
Yeah. And there's nothing to hold onto. There's no landmarks. It's just blackness and nothing. And here were these people that were so much farther along than me, both in age and in widowhood, and. They were landmarks, you know? Oh. It was like, oh, this is what it could look like at 38. This is what it could look like at year five.
And they were models, you know? And even though it's not like, okay, I'm going to try to become what they are and what they're doing, it just, it was the thing that illuminated the path. Yes. You know, I could see ahead finally. And that's why I think it's so important to spend time with widows that are farther along than you who are older than you.
But I've heard from a lot of them how impactful it's been for them to spend time with me. Interest as such a young widow and such an early widow. And, um, the comparison that always comes up. I mean, I suppose comparison isn't even the right word 'cause you can't compare, but. We talk about how, you know, 98% of the people in my group, they lost this long, beautiful life they had with their person all those years.
And now they're in this new phase without their person. And what I lost was all those years that we were going to have. Yeah. And one isn't worse or better. And I think that that's what's been impactful for them knowing me, is just kind of realizing, one, I think they feel thankful for the time that they did have.
Yeah. And two, have some appreciation for what it would be like not to have had the chance. To quote Coach Pamela, who is my colleague, the grass is always browner. The grass is always browner. Yes. Yeah. Yes. So good Minnie, those intergenerational connections are so powerful in life. Yes. But but in grief.
Yeah. So powerful. So what's happening in your life now? What future are you creating? We, we, Minnie and I and some others met in, in Seattle in advance of Camp Widow. And we did this exercise where you visualized a future version of yourself and Minnie. I remember you had no trouble doing it. Do you wanna speak to that?
Oh boy. I wish I had what I wrote down. Um. Yeah. You know, I think that the biggest thing that I took out of your program is I feel like I can see my future again and, um, and things that I want, you know, there were no wants before. It's just survival mode all the time. Sure. Um, but yeah, I think, you know, I have held true to knowing that I want to go home, home to Oregon, and I've known that because it was something I wanted so badly before and it's just maintained.
So that's still there. Um, but yeah, now I'm really imagining this life back out in nature, back out in the woods. And, you know, I, like I mentioned earlier, I lived out in the woods for a while in a really, really remote location. And it wasn't the best time for me. But I think that if I could do it again on my own terms.
That's what I really need. And my partner is excited about it too. And um, I have this dream that I wanna open a boarding house and whether it's a boarding house or maybe it'll be different little cabins or something, but I just wanna be a retreat place for people and I want to make big, elaborate breakfasts and just take care of people and have beautiful natural pools to swim in and have my dog, and have her have a freedom that she doesn't have here in the city and all of these things.
Yeah, that I can just picture really vividly now and just, you know, I don't know if I ever told you this, but. There was somebody in college that said something about me that's always stuck with my, for my life. And I was talking about what I was gonna do after college and he just goes, well, Minnie gets what Minnie wants.
And what he meant was he noticed that whenever I set my mind to something I wanted, I made it happen. No matter how crazy it was. I mean, I have kind of lived an adventurous life so far. And um, so now going into my dreams for Oregon, I once again have that sense of like, I will make this happen even though it sounds ridiculous and unconventional, but I know that I will because I have before and I still know how to do that.
And it's just the vision. You have to have the vision. And then all you have to do after that is break it down into steps and I know how and I'll do it. I love that because you haven't ever done exactly this before. Right? Right. And, and as kids, we just dream. We don't dream according to what we already know how to do.
We just dream. And then people ask kids, what do you wanna be? They ask about your dreams. And then at some point people stop asking about our dreams. And also we start setting our dreams according to our current ability, what we currently know how to do, not our capacity, which is what you are talking about.
You're, I've never done this, but I have the capacity to do it and I believe that it's figure audible and I know I'm the person to figure it out, so let's go. Right. That is such music to my ears. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny to think too, that even in that first year, that was still happening for me, even though I couldn't see it.
Yeah. Here I was designing a haunted house. Yeah. As a first time home buyer. And I, I think that it's true that that probably never really left. It was just under the surface, understandably so. I couldn't see it and it was hard to connect with. Yeah. And I think that's another thing that you've given me is being able to reconnect with who I know I am and feel like myself.
Mm-hmm. Expect limiting beliefs to pop up, trying to our brain, trying to keep us safe, but then acknowledging that and going back to dreaming. I just hear you dream so big and so beautifully, and that's such a sign of healing and growth. Yeah. Thank you. So good. Yeah. So, so your future you are going to have and, and if we haven't talked about this and Minnie's humble, so I'm gonna call this out.
Minnie's also a great chef. Talk to us about that part of your life. Sure. Um, so I was a farm to table chef, um, and that's how I got really excited and passionate about local food systems. And I had, um, part of my job was to go around to different farms and actually pick everything up myself and then go back and cook it all from scratch and, you know, make these elaborate menus.
And it was fun because it was all, um. I did a lot of buffets and they had to please a very wide audience. So there were people that were paying top dollar for a plate and then there were students that were just there to basically get their meal. Um, so it had to be appealing for a lot of people. And so I had a lot of fun doing that and making things very customizable.
And um, one of the suppliers that I worked with was just this guy. I literally would go in my little van and I would drive up and down the country roads and look for little signs, little cardboard signs in front of people's houses. And that's how I found food. And, uh, this guy had eggs and, um, he was so funny.
I'm gonna just, I need to tell you his story right now 'cause he's amazing. Um, he, his neighbor had gone into assisted living and they had had some chickens. And the chickens got left behind and I think there wasn't family or something to take care of 'em. And so when you leave chickens alone, they start to peck each other to death.
And so these chickens were in bad shape and um, he ended up in possession of them and nursed them back to health. He had two little boys. They were so into this with him and he promised him that he'll never ever kill the chickens. Well, word got around in the neighborhood that, oh, this is where you can take your unwanted chickens.
Oh. So within the span of like a year, this guy had like 200 chickens and then, and he promised his boys he was never gonna kill 'em. So he just had all these chickens making all these eggs. And so that's why I would buy my eggs. But um, that was really what got me on my passion for the food system because, you know, this was out in the middle of nowhere and I was buying these eggs for two 50 a dozen.
They were organically, you know, raised. Chickens and wonderful eggs. Just so if you want to learn more about local food, get an egg from the grocery store and go get one from a farm and crack them both and just notice the differences. The shell is so much thicker. The yolk is thicker, it's so orange, like, it's just phenomenal.
And um, so I loved them and he told me, you know, he couldn't sell them. He couldn't sell them all. I was his biggest customer. And he did have one other gal that would buy 'em and drive them into Portland and saw them for like $8 a dozen. But other than that. He had all these leftovers, he fed them to his dogs.
Mm-hmm. And it just drove me crazy to think about how there's all these people living in the cities that want all this locally grown, organic, beautiful food, and then all these farmers that can't get it to the cities because guess what? They're farming. And um, so yeah, that's kind of how my career started.
And, um, I've sort of pivoted from cooking because let's be honest, it's hard and long hours and mm-hmm. It's a lot. And so now I work in food access, um, and it is my passion to try to get more local food to the people who want it and need it the most. So good. So your future in the Portland area, in the Pacific Northwest, you'll be cooking farm to table for the people staying with you, I'm gonna suggest that those could be widowed people.
That's what I've been thinking. Yes. Yes, son. Yes. Okay. You buy the place and And we'll be there, Minnie. We'll be there. Okay. Everyone look out for it. We'll be you'll. We'll have you back on the podcast. Invite all the widowed people and come have an excellent breakfast and Oh, my work with Theresa She'll teach workshops.
Sounds amazing. Fueled by Jake's love, I'm guessing. Yeah. Yes, absolutely. And always love lives. Yes. Do you feel his presence? I do. He still comes to be with me. Yeah, I know that He does. And he'll be there too. He leaves me little signs. Love it. So good. Minnie, you are just an amazing. Soul, an old soul. Aw, thank wise and deep and thoughtful.
Aw, articulate. I couldn't wait to have you on and share you with the listeners, and it's just been a joy to know you and to work alongside you as you've, you're not done. But my goodness, you have gone so far. Its been, thank you so much, Theresa. You have been such an immeasurable blessing in my life. And for the listeners, if you're thinking about taking Theresa's program or not, absolutely do it.
Don't think for another second, just do it. I hope you do. I hope they do. And thank you so much for being here. Yes, take care.
