Hello, and welcome back to the podcast.
I am so excited and so honored to have doctor Nancy Saltsman with me today.
Nancy, I have I have admired from the moment I met you and the moment I heard your story, gosh, probably in 2020 at a virtual camp window.
I think is is when I remember knowing your story and then got to meet you in person later, and it's such an honor to have you today welcome.
Well, thank you.
You know, I have, uh, I just told you I'm in love with you because I I loved meeting you and then hearing you speak and reading your book.
I just learned so much and go back and refer to it and listen to your podcast.
So it's an honor.
I'm really happy to be doing this with you.
Oh, thank you so much.
That feeling is mutual.
Tell for the listeners.
Share your story.
Would you? Okay.
Uh, I had a pretty amazing life, the kind of life I think that most people wanna have.
I was, uh, at my dream job.
I always wanted to be a teacher, and I'd been teaching, and So, and I lived in Colorado Springs, which is beautiful, and I have naturally curly hair, so I wanted to live where the climate was kinda dry, and so I was here because of that.
And in, 1979.
I was walking by a tennis shop and saw this really cute guy and finagled my way into meeting him and was kinda love at first sight and fell in love with him.
His name was Joel herzog, and it was just a whirlwind kind of thing.
And I had just decided to leave Colorado Springs just for a little bit to work on my PhD.
So I convinced him to drive me to the University of Virginia while I was in school.
We're just six weeks after I met him.
We were apart for a year and then, uh, and I just couldn't, uh, handle being away.
So I transferred back to the University of Denver to finish my PhD.
And we got married, and it was just wonderful.
I was, you know, late twenties and Um, so we just had this amazing relationship, and we still have kids right away.
So we had a son named Adam in 1981 and a son in '83 and Joel had a tennis shop and So, uh, just it was great.
I had a a job as assistant principal, uh, by that point, but anyway, so we just had this amazing life.
And, um, in 1990, I found this lump and I discovered that I had breast cancer.
I was really young and scary, but, you know, I had my family and had my job and went through a mastectomy and went, uh, well, had a lot of funny stories around that with my kids.
But, uh, then, we everything was fine.
And then two years later, I had breast cancer again, but at that point, I had chemo and radiation.
Of course, my family, they were supporting me and my job.
Oven.
So we were kind of back to normal, and my kids were playing hockey, and they were my husband on the tennis shops, and my kids were playing tennis.
And I by now, I was a principal, and an elementary school had my dream job.
So my life was just wonderful.
And, uh, so then one of the things that my family liked doing was watching tennis tournaments and playing tennis.
And Joel, my husband decided that he wanted to go watch a Davis Cup tennis tournament because he had friend who invited him to go and said he would fly my husband and two sons to Las Vegas to watch the tennis tournament.
And this was in the fall.
It was really busy school and everything.
So they were gonna fly to Las Vegas and I realized it would be Seth, uh, eleventh birthday well.
They were gone.
So I asked if I could go with them and they told me, no, there was no room on the airplane.
So I got a commercial flight.
And they flew this was in September.
They flew to Las Vegas a day ahead of me, then I flew and met them in Vegas, and we had one of those weekends where it was just so much fun.
We were all together We went to the tennis, we saw cirque du soleil, we had Seth's birthday, and it was just wonderful.
And then on that Sunday, I had to fly back to Colorado Springs on a commercial flight, and they were coming back a little later in the day on the little plane, and it was, um, the pilot and his wife, and Joel and Adam and Seth.
And, uh, Joel called me in the afternoon and said we're just gonna be getting on the plane.
I had just landed in Colorado Springs, and it was raining.
And I thought, well, maybe they wouldn't come, but Joel had left me a message and said, uh, we're gonna be getting on the plane in Las Vegas, and we'll see you about 07:00.
So I knew they were coming home.
I went to school to do some work, and waited to hear from them, and I didn't hear anything.
And so I kept checking the messages.
This was before cell phones and everything, and I didn't hear anything.
I didn't hear anything.
So I finally went home because I started getting a little worried about what was going on.
And Uh, so I just kinda waited around in and about, uh, I guess about 10:00 at night, I got a call from a guy who identified himself as calling from emergency services in Denver.
And he told me that they had a couple of airplanes, uh, down in Colorado and Wyoming or something.
And I said, well, do you know something? And he said, no.
Um, but we don't, you know, we don't know where your husband's plane is.
And I said, are you sure you don't know anything? He said, no.
He said, but I are you religious? And I said, no.
Why? And he said, well, I just don't want you to be sitting by yourself.
So I asked him again to do you know what he said? No.
So I called my best friend and she came right over, and we just talked about we knew they were fine, and they probably just landed in bad weather and hadn't been able to call.
So the the person who initially called me said he would call me back after midnight because what they were doing was the weather was so bad they couldn't find the planes that were down without using satellite coordinates, and they had to wait until they had another coordinate that they would get at midnight.
So after midnight, he called me and actually Donna picked up the phone and handed it to me.
And he said, I'm so sorry.
There were no survivors.
And I just remember saying to him, uh, those were the most beautiful boys.
And he said to me, I'm sure they were me.
I'm sure they were.
And I hung up and collapsed on the floor and cried.
And then as I was there, I realized this was a Sunday.
I'm a principal of a school My son is a fifth grader at that school.
Everybody knew them.
My other son was now in seventh grade, and I needed to tell somebody what was happening.
So that's when I called my superintendent and started notifying people and called my family, uh, and tried to take a look at what the heck my life was gonna be like from second to second moment to moment, what was gonna happen from that point on.
It gets me teary hearing you tell your story every single time.
And I work in public.
This fall, it will be thirty years.
So that's kind of mind boggling to me to think that I've survived all this time without them.
And it's still I still miss them every day and think about them and tell stories about them and still have a huge several holes in my heart from missing them.
No doubt.
How does a person survive thirty years? There what there was a survivor and it and it's you.
And the name of your book is radical survivor, an unforgettable journey that will change you forever is is printed on the front of your book.
Reading your book was such a page turner for me.
I could not put it down.
Um Thank you.
There was a definitely a labor of love because I felt like I cheer who my family was with people who would read the book and then also what I went through and some things that I did that helped me keep going and be able to live after The unthinkable happen.
The unthinkable.
And you truly do live now.
You live fully.
Right, Nancy? Yes.
Absolutely.
How does a person do that? You know, I I think for me, there were so many things.
Um, one is that I was raised in a family that We were razably that we were here to make a difference, a positive difference in the lives of others and to give back to our communities.
So I think I felt like I had a purpose.
And my purpose was working with kids and working in a school and working with adults.
So I had inherent in me that drive to continue to wanna continue to live to to make that person.
I don't mean to mislead people.
There certainly was plenty of time that I thought.
I actually don't wanna be here.
Um, the only one who has to actually live with this horror every single day.
I mean, everybody else lost them also, but not at the same level that I did.
And you know having being widowed that every every single thing you do every day when you've been widowed, is changed, uh, and then having lost the boys as well.
So you're it means you don't have the same life at all.
But because I believe that I needed to keep going, I was able to go back to work a week after the plane crash.
And partly because Seth was there, I mean, his desk was in his classroom.
Every single person in my school knew who knew him.
Knew, my other son, knew my husband.
So I felt like they were all there.
I needed to be there, and I needed to be there so the kids could see that I was okay.
Because when they many of the kids when they first heard the news, they thought one of my sons had survived that I had been with them and died.
So I felt like I needed to be there.
So I had this big pull to go to work and help everybody figure out how to move forward during this grief process.
So I and I also had a huge support system with my teachers at school.
I had, uh, my family.
Now my nobody lives here.
They didn't come out right after the plane crash.
But I don't have any family living here.
But I had a lot of friends and we've been part of the hockey community, part of the tennis community, so I just had a lot of support that way.
Uh, I was lucky that I was able to see a therapist who I had seen when I had breast cancer, so I'd gotten to know him when I had breast cancer because he was one of my main reasons for talking to him initially was How do I talk to my boys about having breast cancer? And he was very help, uh, helpful with that.
So I was able to go back to him and say, do you think I'm gonna survive this? And he would he said, you know, I need you before, and I think Yes.
You're gonna eventually be okay.
So I think that was really helpful.
I also live in a beautiful place and I love being outside.
So I was able to be outside.
Uh, I also had two dogs and I had to get up every day.
To feed the dogs and walk the dogs.
And so I just felt all this, I think responsibility kind of maybe is how I would describe it, that I just had to keep going for those reasons.
And I think also another big thing is I loved being married and I loved being part of a family.
I loved being a mother.
And so I knew what happiness was and I wanted to have that again, never the same, but I knew I like being live, and I think that was also a dream.
So I hate with so many things that that that really helped me.
So many things in equal parts would you say? Yes.
I actually would say probably so many things in equal parts.
Maybe the strongest thing is just having been loved and loving.
I think that was a really key.
I was so lucky to have had it.
I was just would have was looking for something to have again, I think.
It was also pretty strong.
Mhmm.
So there was a a pull.
You're almost pulled forward whether you liked it or not.
Does that seem accurate? Absolutely.
That's a great way to describe it.
And even I think on the days I didn't want to be, I was anyway pulled forward for all those those reasons I said.
Mhmm.
It's okay to wake up, isn't it? And and immediately feel annoyed that you still have a pulse.
Did you did you experience that? You know, I love some of the things that you say in your book because I'm not sure I was aware of some of the things that you say in the book.
I mean maybe I was aware but not so I could have said it, but you say it so perfectly and I think that's a great way to say as you wake up and you're irritated they are you're actually there.
Plus you talk about we have an expectation to be happy all the time And that's just not reality.
And I think that was a big surprise to me that you could be happy and sad actually at the same time.
Or be sad sad, happy, happy, sad, sad, happy, happy, happy.
Yes.
Um, it was that was that was kind of mind blowing too that you have those uh, one of my therapists said you have, uh, brief relief from grief, and you have to have that.
So if that means going outside and just having that brief relief outside breathing that you get some relief from your grief.
Uh, even though I think people are looking at you all the time and watching and you're getting judged if you're happy, you know.
I mean, I did have somebody say to me, I have a friend say to me, How could, uh, how could Nancy be so happy now? She must not have loved her family very much.
And I just remember getting sick to my stomach for about twenty four hours because I thought, well, maybe they're right.
Maybe I I didn't love my family enough.
And how can I be happy again? And finally went, that's just crazy making.
Uh, I knew they would want me to be happy again.
And, um, but yes, people were You're kinda judged, but back to your question.
Yeah.
You wake up and like, I'm still here.
Darn it.
Where do I file my complaint? Yes.
Right.
And yet you're pulled forward by all the things that kept you going forward.
Yeah.
So powerful.
People do judge and and then it it's kind of helpful because it brings up areas that we might not have sorted yet in our own brain.
The truth is, and it took me a long time to realize that I could honor Ted with my happy with my joy.
Like, right? Because you lose you lose your person.
In Kate, in your case, you lost your family.
Right.
And so what moves in is heartache and grief and all the uncomfortable, horrible, profoundly, difficult feelings.
And that seems like the way to honor them, maybe the one and only way.
And then, right, you get a glimmer of happy or you catch yourself laughing or whatever whatever it is and you go, wow, that feels wrong or incorrect or dishonoring in some way.
But the truth is, like, we honor them with all of it.
Does that ring true for you? Well, what's interesting is, you know, now with Facebook, um, I post pictures of them or it'll be a special day or I'll just also think of something or someone will send me a picture I've never seen before.
And I can put it on Facebook or send it to friends.
And I've had people say to me, I'm so glad that you continue to remember your family by sharing their stories.
And I think you just hit the nail on the head is We wanna continue to remember them, to honor them and to share who they were so that they continue to exist.
Um, thirty years later, not just for us, for, but for other people who knew them and loved them and remember them.
Um, so missing them is always going to be a part of part of that, but celebrating them is just a wonderful thing to do, and it brings me so much happiness to look at their pictures.
And, I mean, for there was a lot, uh, you know, of course, there was the period afterwards where it was very hard.
To, uh, look at their pictures.
But, you know, I was in such a unique situation because both of my kids went through the school where I was a principal and sat with a student when he died, So the kids at school could tell me stories about them and they wanted to talk about them.
And I felt so good about saying yes, when people die, it's okay to talk about them.
As opposed to when my parents had friends who had children die, they never talked about them.
They were told the best way to handle it is never talk about this person and then how much craziness because of that.
So I think, and I I know this is true because people told me that they all watched me to see what you do when you're grieving and they learned that it was okay to talk about the people and honor the people and tell stories about them.
And of course, that helped me because I got to hear stories, you know, that I had never heard.
Like, I remember going out on my back deck and seeing these little black circles on the deck, and I couldn't figure out what they were.
So I asked one of, uh, Seth's friends I said, David, I was out on the back deck and I can see all these weird marks.
And he goes, oh, Doctor Saltzman.
We used to go over to your house after school and white things on fire.
Oh, and we ran around on the roof too.
So I had access to these people, you know, these kids who knew my kids who could tell me things.
I might not normally have been able to to learn.
Um, and of course, you know, people hesitate, they I had people say to me, well, I didn't wanna bring it up because I didn't wanna make you sad or I didn't know.
And, of course, kids were like, hey, I'm gonna talk about it.
As long as they knew I was okay with it, which of course I was saying, yes, I want to hear your stories.
So I think we were able to impact a whole group of kids who've learned how to deal with grief in a really healthy way Uh, and we're also really lucky we had a grief counselor come in once a week to work with SaaS, best friends, and then another group of kids who were just having a hard time beside our school counselor.
So, she was great at helping them learn how to deal with grief and just in such a healthy way that I think historically has not been true.
What a ripple effect you you'll probably never know fully the the ripple effect.
Not that not that you wouldn't trade it in a hot minute, of course.
Uh, right.
Grieve with that.
But, you mean, it's kinda like when people say things happen for a reason, I'm like, I don't agree with that.
I think you make reason out of these things that happen.
So because this horrible thing happened to all of us, we were able to learn from it and move forward.
And, I mean, I have heard from former students who've who've reached out to me later saying, you know, my I just lost a friend and I remember watching you and I learned some things to do, like, to reach out to people and talk to them about it.
And so, you know, we do know on a small level that it did have an impact.
I mean, it had a huge impact.
This is the first most horrible thing that happened to most of these kids because they saw Adam and Seth on Thursday, and they didn't come back to school on Monday.
Yeah.
So it was so shocking.
And of course at home, their parents were dealing with them in many different ways in the ways, you know, that the families wanted to.
But I wasn't really open about what we were doing at school and saying we're gonna talk about it.
If your child doesn't wanna talk about it, they don't have to, but these things we're doing.
And but you a year after we did a big huge balloon release after school where, um, the kids could write messages to anybody they wanted to, didn't have to be Joel Adams Seth.
It could be them, or anybody else, and then we released all these balloons and I did have a dad come in and say, you know, my son just got over this, and now you just reminded him of what happened.
So, not everybody was thrilled with what we were doing, but we really felt like overall what we were doing was really trying to honor the kids, my family, other kids who's experienced losses, because, of course, we had other kids who'd experienced losses, not always death, but health and loss of a parent, uh, all the things that we grieve as we're going through our lives.
You were in you were in the spotlight in some ways being in a leadership position.
Yes.
And in some sense, we all are leaders in in helping other people know how to interact with us.
Maybe helping other people understand grief a a bit more.
Like, we have to set this set the tone for what's what we want for ourselves.
I'm I'm what you know, certainly a person who says, tell me stories about Ted.
I wanna hear I wanna hear your stories, especially the ones I haven't heard, and I won't be surprised that there were there was inappropriate humor and bad jokes.
Right? Um, but it just it feels good to to hear those stories.
And then I do wanna ask you about, like, even very early on, you wanted to love again, to to be loved again, to to and so I wanna hear about that part of your of your story if you'll if you don't mind sharing, but I think that's another biomarker where we have to set the tone.
Maybe someone new comes into your life and and I was really careful about You know, we still talk about Ted.
It's okay and normal that we talk about Ted.
We laugh about Ted.
We laugh about the things he would be saying right now.
And, um, that's okay with this new person in my life.
And I don't I don't know if you have thoughts.
Tell us your story.
Would you about meeting Greg? Sure.
I think, um, not long after Joel died.
Um, I told all the parents at my school that if they knew anybody who was single, who wanted to date me, to give me their names and I would call them.
That is so bold.
That is so poor.
Well, you know what? Everybody was watching me anyway to see what I was gonna be doing.
So, uh, for a while, I had some moms at my school giving me the names of people, and I really did call people and asked them if they wanted to eat for coffee.
Now this was, um, so they died in 1995.
So there wasn't really, you know, online dating or anything like that yet.
So, um, but I did.
I called these people and I would say, you know, who I was and how I their name.
And I did go out on, um, several different dates, and I do describe them in the book because most of the people I met were really nice.
Just not the right person for me, and I know when I first started going out, all I did was talk about Joel and the kids and because that's what I need to do.
So, um, and I did get anonymous notes from who I had this really funny note in the book about getting, uh, a note from a guy who invited me to go to the poker club in Colorado Springs and go polka dancing every.
But when did you? You know, and I got the call from the widow group.
But anyway, so I I did go out for coffee dates but didn't really meet anybody for a while and and then I started going out to there was a cowboy bar in town, and I liked cowboy music.
And so I actually went out and, uh, met a guy who was think he was at least ten years younger than I was.
But so I did start dating him, um, and dated him for about two years, and it was interesting because really wanted to get married.
He really wanted to have kids and because he was a lot younger than I was.
And because of my breast cancer, I had had a hysterectomy.
It couldn't have any more children.
So eventually, it was just I learned a lot.
I went hunting and fishing with him, something I'd never Uh, and eventually we broke up and but I'd learned a whole lot.
And then I I have a friend.
I was actually a musical mom at my schools.
Set me up with another guy.
And he'd been married and had two kids.
And he was a really nice guy, and I dated him, but he was really religious.
And then we just didn't really we had a great time dating, but I could tell it wasn't gonna work out eventually, but it was really nice to be just with somebody and also it was really hard to be with somebody who had kids and he had an ex wife and there were just all these complications, but like with everything with all this, I just learned a whole lot and enjoyed being with them and eventually broke up.
And what's really cool is after I broke up with both these guys is they met their person and they got married and had everything they wanted.
So I was really happy about that.
And then eight years after the plane crash, I was teaching a class for people who want to be principals and there was a woman in the class who said, um, my next door neighbor's wife just passed away.
And she said, I actually thought he was kind of an arrogant asshole But then I went to his wife's service and I think he's really a nice guy and he's tall dark and handsome and I think you might like him.
And she told me that in September and his wife had died in August.
And I thought, well, I don't know that might be too soon, but then she told me again, you know, I really think you should, uh, contact him.
And so that was in November.
And she had Greg and me and her neighbors, my friend who told me about him, uh, her house, and then her neighbors came over for a dinner.
And I was doing something with a friend earlier.
So I got to dinner, and they were all drunk.
And and one of the couples had known Joel, my husband who died and had tennis lessons from him.
So it was just kind of a really funky little dinner.
And I thought, well, I don't think that's gonna work out.
And Greg didn't really pay that much attention to me.
So I decided to leave, and Nelson walked me to my car, and he locked me in my car.
And he said, I'll call you.
I think we should just go out on a date, just the two of us.
So he'd actually did end up calling me and we went out on a date and we went out for dinner.
And as we sat down, this was so funny because so he was widowed.
His wife died of breast cancer, actually.
He helped take care of her for a couple of years when she was ill.
And I did meet him three months after she died.
And, of course, everybody said to me, it's gonna be too soon.
And just so everybody listening those, we're still together.
We met in 2003 and so we're still together.
But anyway, um, we sat down at dinner and the very first thing he goes, now, if we end up being together, I just want you to know that I have to be buried where my wife who died is because if I'm not buried with her at the Air Force Academy, they'll dig her up, and they'll have to move her.
That's like literally the first thing he said we sat down.
So I said, well, that's okay, because I'm gonna be buried with my family.
Okay.
Glad we got that out of the way.
That takes the award for awkward.
Yes.
On a yeah.
So we survived that dinner.
So we won't be following Greg for dating tips.
That's right.
Oh my gosh.
No kidding.
So I did meet him three months afterwards and, uh, that has worked for us, even though people thought it would be too soon.
And but I wouldn't say it was like a smooth ride or anything.
It wasn't because especially for me, I think my heart just with was with the Joel and the boys and it just took me a long time to realize I could actually be in love with Greg and Joel and Adam.
Yeah.
There's there's enough room for that.
And uh, I actually went to a therapist to talk about it, and she had me do some E MDR by spotting things, which was cool because Greg came in the room, and Joel came in the room.
She said, what do you think? I said, I guess that means they can all be together and it'll be fine.
So, yeah, I mean, I just feel incredibly lucky because Greg is really a wonderful person, and we enjoy being with each other.
We're really different.
He's really different than Joe and I think that's fine.
And well, I'm always laughing too because Joel was five six, maybe.
And Greg is six four.
So physically, they're just so different.
But yeah, I think, you know, it's I guess I've said this.
I mean, it's taken a leap of faith, but I've also said that I've had what I imagine is one of the worst things that could ever happen to you.
I lost the love of my life and my my sons.
And even if it was too early for Greg and it hadn't worked out, I knew I could survive it.
I had already survived a couple of serious relationships where I had really loved the people I was with and I was able to survive breaking up with them and watch them go on to be happy in a if it didn't work out with Greg.
And, of course, you know, we still have to deal with somebody's gonna die at some point.
You know, we joke about putting the dogs in the car and driving off the cliff, but Somebody's gonna predecease somebody else now.
I'm five years older, so that's part of my plan.
That all the time.
That's a go first and stick Greg with Mcgreens? You know that's ridiculous.
So but we've definitely talked about it and I've thought about it when I, um, so I'm a cancer survivor and two years ago Greg got throat cancer and so, of course, we went through the chemo and the radiation of all that and now he's doing fine and he's had all these clear scans and everything, but, you know, we just don't have any guarantees and sadly, we know we're gonna survive it.
And it'll be terrible.
It'll be sad and we don't want it to happen.
But we also know we can.
And now, of course, we have all these other supports through meeting all these widowed people who get it.
So we have all that additional support that we didn't necessarily have.
I certainly didn't have it when I was widowed in my early forties.
Yes.
I love the thought.
I am equipped.
Like, unfortunately, I'm really equipped to to deal with the darkest darkness.
And if I have to deal with darkness again, well, I don't want to, but I'm equipped.
I have all the tools.
Really helps me to think of it that way.
I think this one of the surprising things to me though in all of this is that one of the things that helps us is that we're able to put things in perspective.
So when bad things happen, we go, well, we've helped we've dealt with this so we have the skills.
But it's amazing to me how frustrating just little things can be like trying to get a sprinkler person to come help you with your sprinklers.
Amen.
And you think I have dealt with so many hard things in my life.
Why am I so frustrated that I can't get a decent sprinkler person? And it just surprises me because I think We of all people should be able to put that in perspective immediately and go, so what? The sprinkler guy isn't coming, but we have normal human reactions to normal things that happen.
And yes, we have more skills and we can say to ourselves.
I've dealt with much worse.
I'm gonna be fine and it does help, but you still have the everyday minute to minute other things that happen that are frustrating.
Yes.
Other thing.
I am the sprinkler person at my house, and I've cried many sprinkler tears because, uh, like my my nemesis, right? The spring There we go.
Or the traffic.
And it's always that I think it should be different than it is.
I shouldn't be stuck in this traffic and this sprinkler shouldn't be broken.
Right? But it is broken.
And we're normal people and we have normal lives, even though we have this other thing happen.
Yeah.
So we have the normal Things that happen to normal people too.
Yes.
My a a dear friend of mentor, doctor David Godble, said to me one time, after Ted had died, he said Teresa.
I remember the moment I was driving him from Yosemite to the airport.
Somewhere in between, he said, Theresa.
Love is eternal and it's infinite.
And I I knew their eternal part because I was already able to think of Ted's in my love as present tense Right? Still still alive.
And so I could get the eternal part, but I didn't know what he meant about infinite.
And I think a little it took me it took me a while to figure out infinite, meaning my heart had the ability to expand and expand and expand and get all tons new capacity as people came into my life.
And I I love the saying like, what if you've not met everybody who's gonna love you in this life? And it it's so It's so optimistic because love is so abundant.
And I think that's what you were saying in in your EMR session, like, oh, I can love two men and my boys.
My heart has this new capacity.
It's like, the capacity your heart got for Greg didn't diminish all of your heart that Joel had and has.
Does that seem accurate? Yes.
I love that.
Yes.
That perfectly said.
New capacity.
The other thing that strikes me as I hear you tell your story is that, you know, we could tell your story to millions of people and every single person would be like, oh, she's so resilient.
She's so strong.
Right? But the truth is resilience does not feel resilient and strength does not feel strong.
It all feels pretty terrible.
Right? Yes.
But then we look at it on from the outside looking in and we go, oh, that's resilience and action.
That's strength and action right there.
It's just messy.
Right.
And I think that's another thing that we've learned is human beings are amazingly resilient.
I mean, I did have people say to me Oh, I could never go through what you went through.
And I was thinking, well, I'm not really sure.
I mean, you have a choice in that you could take your own life, or you could live a miserable life forever.
Um but I think most people are going to choose to continue on and make the best of their life and I guess that's how I look at resilience and we don't know what we're gonna be able to do and we figured out and we learn it.
And like I said, it's all over the spectrum, but most people want to continue and want to have happiness in their life again.
Maybe paired with the sadness always.
But but yes, I certainly had a lot of people say you're so resilient.
You're so strong.
And, you know, I know a lot of people who are grieving.
You've had that and have the reaction.
They just wanna punch the person.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, you know, I've said different things.
Like, I'm, you know, not really sure that I had the option.
Of course, we do, but I really felt like it was important to stay here.
And then make the best of that.
And I guess we're just amazing humans.
Amazing.
Truly.
And and, like you said, the option to stay here, but then kind of opt out.
Of life is an option.
Sure.
And and no judgment.
It's all this life can be profoundly difficult.
And it it's okay to opt out and kind of have this measured amount of of living that you do.
And it's also okay to give yourself permission to to opt in and truly live.
I love that.
That's great.
I I remember thinking for many years, if I'm not miserable, then I didn't love him enough.
And I don't know where I got that thought.
I didn't think it ever of other people.
But for me, that thought seemed true.
So I couldn't I could never opt in to life with that thought.
Right.
Yeah.
But I do think because we don't maybe you maybe we haven't been through it.
So we don't like if you haven't been through it, maybe you don't understand.
And looking from the outside, it doesn't make sense.
Because you imagine how could someone survive this? I couldn't because you think you couldn't.
Yeah.
So you kind of are judgmental about it.
And once you've done it, you realize, you know, there's no judging in it.
You just have to do what works out best for you.
I mean, I've certainly had people say to me, no way could I ever go back to work? Certainly I couldn't have gone back a week after something horrible like that.
Well, I could not go back.
Yeah.
So and I'm sure, you know, of course, people would come to school and hope they wouldn't see me.
Yo.
No tell.
Because, you know, you know, they're like, what am I gonna say? Or, uh, you know, I'm out in the front of the school waving, telling me.
Because that was my job.
Uh And that's part of your book.
If you haven't bought doctor Nancy's book, I I thought it was so beautiful.
Um, she includes in her book some written words, some sentiments that other people shared with you that were so helpful to you and they're just beautiful.
You were surrounded by some grief savvy brilliant people.
I think.
Yes.
Well, and it's funny too because I had to get I didn't understand this, but when I wanted to put letters in the book that people had written to me, my my editor, the person I was working with said, you need to ask people for permission.
And I'm like, well, they're my letters.
Said no, you should ask them for permission.
So I have about 50 letters in there, I think, and I called every person or emailed every person, and a 100% of them said, I wrote you a letter.
I I mean, because it was seventeen years after that I started doing this, And I would say, yes, let me send it to you or read it to you.
And every single person was just so impressed.
They had one written me letter too that they it was so beautiful and they wanted I mean, they were fine with me sharing what if I had one person ask me to not put her name in, but she told me, oh, yes, you can put it in.
Because I wanted other people to know that you can write a letter.
Here were some great examples of letters, and I've actually gone back and looked at their letters in my book and thought, oh, that's a cool thing to say.
And then I'd write that.
And, realize him how important writing those letters are or nowadays, I guess people email or text, which is not the same but the same in the way we do things now, is to say something is better than not saying something.
Yes.
And there's so many people now like, um, there's so many books out now.
If you have a hard time figuring out what to say, you can Google what should I say? Because everybody says I'm sorry and then you say that's okay or that's just such a weird Um, and I've learned a lot through my own experience to just be able to say, wow, I'm so glad I knew that person or you've told me stories about that person and I know that person's going to be missed.
So I've learned a lot about how to communicate and to say something.
I mean, I don't know how many people I think I say this in the book.
I mean, you should call someone and say that you're thinking about them.
That's really all you need and you can hope that they don't answer.
Yes.
You can give a message.
But the idea is you're splitting them know that you're thinking about it.
If they do answer, you can just say, I've been thinking about you and they can say whatever they're gonna say.
Thank you, guys.
I noticed the most grief savvy people that I at least interacted with in person, they didn't even they weren't even trying to find words because they know that words fail, and so they would just give me a hug, which which meant so much to me.
And and I just observe them not trying to dig up the right words.
And I thought, oh, people who are really grief savvy, they don't even try to find the words.
But if you were trying to send an email or leave a voicemail, well, you need words.
That's the problem.
Right.
But I think you can always say I'm thinking about you.
Yes.
I'm thinking about you and I'll drop off rolls of toilet paper because I know a lot of people are gonna be coming by your house.
Yes.
So Exactly.
We have learned some good things to do.
And the other thing is if you say something and you feel bad that you said something that didn't hit right, it's actually okay to say I'm sorry.
Uh-huh.
That was dumb.
Yeah.
The truth is I don't know what to say.
I don't know what to say.
And I think I also learned you know the words can't take your pain away.
I wish they could, but they just can't.
Yeah.
So it's the being there in person and just showing up and even just knocking the door and saying I'm thinking about you and Yes.
Like I said, leave six rolls of toilet paper and some paper towels.
And some breath mints.
Yes.
Oh, breath mints are good.
Oh, I think it's love that heals really love heals.
And the love that we had for them helps you, I think, love, accept love, uh, all of those things that you said that I love.
Yeah.
And I think you can opt like you were talking about opting in and opting out.
I don't think it has to be a 100% opting in either.
You could opt in for a little bit and opt out.
Yes.
As you get your emotional strength back.
Absolutely.
I know for sure I had to do a lot of being by myself to have the emotional energy to go back to work.
Uh, I can only imagine And I didn't want to work after a month, but I I was well below my pay grade.
Like, I really should have just been sweeping the floors all day.
Well, I know.
It's so funny you say because I'm thinking I was back at work I don't know if I did a good job or not.
Like, did I do any evaluations that year with the teachers? I don't have any idea if they were any good.
But that being there was good for me and I think it was good for everybody else and And, you know, and you do think about how much emotional strength you have.
So you do have to conserve some of your own strengths so that you can be there present for other people.
But it does run out so you do have to take care of yourself.
By night, isn't it that energy? Yes.
Yes.
Absolutely.
Sal soli solitude and silence.
Where my vitamin s's that were so important to me early on and remain important to me.
Like, some things just don't change.
Right? It's a new version of us that we have to learn.
Yes.
Yeah.
So good.
Doctor Nancy, I am so honored that you would spend your time with me and our listeners and share your story.
It's so impactful and so so sad and simultaneously so hopeful.
Um, and so full of love.
It's really.
Thank you.
I agree with you.
I agree with you and I do just want to I know already said let's just plug your book again.
I've given it to tons of people.
It doesn't have to just be for someone who lost a spouse.
It just helps you think about things in a way that you can move forward.
And especially if you're stuck, it gives you some great strategies.
I'm still using it.
Now I refer to it now and remember the things that you said and say in your podcast.
I just it's just such a good reminder of you don't have to believe everything you think.
Just what you say.
You do not have to believe everything you think, and that is so key, uh, with everything, really, and definitely with grief, like I'm never going to be able to move forward.
No.
Actually are.
Don't have to believe everything you think.
So I so appreciate you.
It's a book like I said that I recommend or recommend you or that people listen to you because it's helped me.
With many different parts of my life.
So and it's helped me understand how come I survived a lot of the things that I have.
So I appreciate it.
It's wonderful speaking with you and seeing your gorgeous face.
Likewise, I I certainly have not lost my entire family and, uh, you know, so I don't have that experience, but I'm I'm so honored that the book you were able to, you know, use the book for your for your purposes.
Those are those are tools for grief.
Yes, but they're also tools for life and so.
And and if if listeners, if you haven't read Doctor.
Nancy's book, it's a page turner in my opinion, really an amazing book.
So thank you.
Thank you so much.
I always look forward to seeing you in person Nancy and Greg are the very fun people to hang out with.
Thank you.
Well, and if we go on a road trip again in California, we're coming to see you.
You must stop Okay.
Near Yosemite.
Sounds great.
Thank you so much for being here
